Jonestown
Audiotape Primary Project : Transcripts
Transcript prepared by Fielding M. McGehee, III. If
you use this material, please credit The Jonestown Institute. Thank you.
Tape Number : Q 601
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Jones: (Speaks deliberately, slowly, dispassionately) —didn’t you have some other matters, there was something about learning or request so we can get it taken care of? We had a very disorganized (Pause) affair here these past few days, with White Nights.
Voice off mike too quiet.
Tape cuts off for undetermined period of time.
Jones: It seems (tape break-up) capable of um, the most (tape break-up). Absolutely groundless, involving Tim. (tape break-up). There was nothing whatsoever to your allegations. It all started by your demand on our radio that you talk in the middle of our criseses, that you going to have to talk to Shanda [Oliver], and apparently she has made some decision contrary to even our counsel that uh, she wants to call it quits. Now— (Pause) And I can understand that, by reading this kind of tripe that you put out. This is uh, this is ridiculous. Where have you been all, all your days, son? Where’ve you been? This is juvenile. This, this letter is just filled with all kinds of juvenile shit. (Pause) I don’t think we have to re— I don’t think we have to review it all (Pause), what you and Tim have been doing, and so forth and so on. There been (unintelligible word) nothing. (Pause) Absolutely nothing. But what were you doing? You see, then you open the cauldron, and we started looking. And we find Karen Lendo says that you and he— she have been doing considerable. (Pause) You were projecting— You were projecting on others what you were doing yourself.
Bruce Oliver: (tapes cuts in) —(unintelligible word) Dad.
Lee Ingram: But why would you, why would you personally, Bruce? You know. A guy who knew Tim, you— you’ve run with Tim a little bit, uh, you’re friends with him, why would you try to put a, a bad light on him?
Bruce: Uh, I w— uh— it was just— it was my paranoid that uh, what people were— were telling me when I was in Georgetown, and—
Jones: I checked that out. I read your letter, I took it, checked it with Ava, um— she didn’t, she didn’t uh, say what you said she said. I checked uh, everythi— every fact that you said here. Apparently, you, uh— and then I called um, on the floor, Shawnterri [Hall, better known as Teresa Cordell], and uh, Shawntiki [Johnson], rather, Shawntiki, and uh, Kim Yoon Ai, and they both denied it.
One or two voices, too soft.
Jones: Well, there—
Lee Ingram: Right there, speak up, come on.
Woman: I know when, um, you was pissed off ‘cause you had to stay there two weeks, and you wanted me to reassure Shanda that you was still with her on that, and I said— someone came over with the rumors back about Shanda and Tim, and I said, everybody going by the mover— rumors, they are so old th— and the reason why he was pissed off ‘cause Shanda didn’t tell you about ‘em, and the reason Shanda didn’t tell you about them, because they were— it wasn’t really the truth. And then you— in your letter, you just— you know, I think you exaggerate a little about me.
Jones: A little bit? Now, wait now, hold it. Now hold it.
Woman: I mean, a lot.
Jones: Hold it. You— you people said uh— you denied it all.
Woman: I did, I—
Jones: You denied every bit of it.
Woman: I am.
Jones: Well, ‘cause I, I want, uh— But I do clearly remember that. He’s done enough, from what I heard from your brother. (Pause)
Bill Oliver: Uh, uh, first, first of all, I want, I want to say to you— look at me, blood — is, I, I lost a lot of disrespect for you at the time when— remember we moved to the (unintelligible word) and I was going with Angela, and I went home, and you went upstairs after the party and you starting kissing on lady, you told me you fucked her, I lost a lot of disrespect then. But that’s secondary. First of all, I didn’t think, I didn’t think it was right for you to put Dad through the shit after he’s going through shit with our parents, so-called parents, you put him through that kind of shit, (struggles for words)—
Jones: (slows down throughout sentence) Hold it, hold it, no, hold it, hold it, hold it, hold it, hold it, hold it, hold it, hold it.
People in crowd: Get up, Bruce, get up.
Jones: I don’t believe that one now. (Pause)
Male in crowd: (unintelligible sentence). Don’t anybody strike a blow unless you are instructed to. (Pause) Nobody.
Jones: (Unintelligible— sounds like "Get some coke on.")
Bill: Can I say something Dad? First of all, you, you should have never put Dad through fuckin’ shit—
Jones: Now don’t do that no more.
Several people talk.
Lee Ingram: — but don’t touch.
Bill: First, first of all, you should have never put Dad through the shit, after fuckin’ shit our parents is causing us, and you shoulda— you shoulda been in Georgetown working instead of— (Pause) instead of fuckin’ around.
Bruce: When I was in Georgetown, I was workin’.
Bill: But still, you shouldna said—
Lee Ingram: Bill, (unintelligible) you got things to say, but (Pause)
Bill: I said, you you you you shouldna put Dad through that fuckin’ shit, blood, like uh, demanding to see Shanda when we in cri— Hold it.
Someone tries to interrupt.
Bill: Shut up! Huh? Or demanding to see Shanda when we lookin’— when we in a crisis situation. See, that’s why your fuckin’ ass gone lose— you lost her, ‘cause you so fuckin’ insecure, how the fuckin’ bitch has been your mother-fuckin’ first all the time. All them bitches that you told me that being your mother-fu— for you are the cause him to call him up, because they responsible for your shit, instead of being there workin’. You know?
Male: That’s true. Every— everything he said is true, but (mike cuts off)
Voices compete.
Bruce: (Stutters) I did— I did the bad (unintelligible word) And Ki— And Kim did tell me that there was rumors going on and that, and that— that, that we were supposed to be breaking up and she was supposed to be going with Tim and then Shawntiki, Shawntiki did tell me that uh, uh, she heard that we were supposed to be breaking up too. It was all juvenile, but—
Jones: It was obviously juvenile. Sandy had uh, some other consensual (Unintelligible word— sounds like "arrangement"). He has an entirely different arrangement. There was no— There was nothing there. If you’d been very observant and so totally uh, not caught up in your paranoia, you’da found out the facts.
Marceline: (Fades in from off mike) —what right did you have to really be (tape breakup) — right do you have to hold any strings to her anyway, when you were fuckin’ around. What right do you have to b— have one standard for her and something else for you.
Jones: Don’t shout. Don’t— don’t shout. Don’t shout out. Don’t shout out. There’s an audience.
Woman: Bruce, you really got your butt—
Jones: Can somebody get us something wet? Uh, go ahead.
Shanda: (Emotional) Bruce, I am sick and tired of, every time, even if I pass by Tim, if I look at him, you got something to say, I’m always messing around with him. And you, all the goddamn time, you (grunts in rage)—
Jones: No, no, I said (stumbles for words) pop it now. Just stop it now. The damn people, stop this popping.
Lee Ingram: (unintelligible) —that’s not what you guys’re up there for. And nobody touch— and listen, listen, listen, listen. Come on, now. Wait. Hold it. Hold it.
Jones: Now, no more popping. I mean, no popping. (Speaks each word deliberately) No. More. Popping.
Voices in audience too soft.
Jones: I’m telling you folks.
Male in crowd: —control yourself.
Jones: Now you know we got, we got, we— he may deserve his popping. You got Soviet guests here. (Pause)
Shanda: (Near tears) I’m sorry. But Bruce, all this fuckin’ time, you talkin’ about, you so— you so true, and I’m the one messin’ around, and you messin’ around with Karen. (Pause) I mean, you really got— you are— you are so beyond the low, I don’t see how lower— you can’t get any lower. You— Mr. Good, you never come off bad. Your whole life is phony. You need to get serious, and, and— second, that, that’s secondary, but the first thing, it is with your mom. If you woulda known when he was going through out here, then maybe you woulda been a little more considerate about— about the shit we— about everything. Fuck it, ‘cause it’s over with me and you. I want you to know that. You, Mr. Saint and Mr. Gettin’ and Fuckin’, I’m— everybody around here. So it’s over. Okay, not everybody, but, ah, ah, you been messin’ around with a lot of girls. (Pause)
Male asks Bruce a question, too soft.
Bruce: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Shanda: And you— you swore you wasn’t— didn’t touch Karen. Karen was the one coming on to you.
Male: Is this true?
Jones: Oh, what— what about this, Karen? What did, uh, what was this uh, arrangement between you?
Karen: No— (Clears throat) The thing— the thing was between me and Bruce, it was always Bruce com— it was all Bruce coming to me, and it was me just going along with it all the time, and um, Bruce would always tell me, when Shanda was going back into Georgetown, and uh, he— like, when she got— when she got here, just this last time, he was saying, um, how he was missing me, and how, how uh, when he was with Shanda, he was wishing he was with me and stuff. And he, he just all said this kind of stuff, and didn’t— just before he left this last time, he was telling me um, how it was going to be over and stuff, and um, and um, that he really liked Shanda and stuff. That’s— that’s what he just said ju— just before he went to Georgetown this last time.
Shanda: (fades in) —too late. I want you to know, it’s too late. I want you to know, (unintelligible word), it— it is too late. Your shit has been going on too long with other ladies, five and six on the side, but it’s ended now. (Pause) And I hope every other sister know— know Bruce’s games.
Voice too soft.
Bruce: Yes.
Jones: Tell me how you came to go with your brother’s girlfriend, though. That uh, that came out in this catharsis. How’d that come?
Bruce: Uh, that was uh—
Jones: No, just tell me how. Why would you do that to your brother?
Bruce: It was— Because it was— it was— okay, it was six years ago, and uh— and uh—
Male: Hey, Bruce—
Bruce: (cuts him off) Okay, okay, but let me— okay okay, and uh— I was— and he knew that I was really really liking a girl, and she went with him because he was prettier than me. That’s what you told me. And that— And that really really hurt my ego, so— so then— so then when he quit her, I, I, I was still liking her, so then that’s when— so that’s when uh—
Jones: Oh, you had quit her?
Bruce: No, he had. See, she never would go with me, ‘cause she said that— she said that she wished that, that I had Billy’s looks, but, but my mind, and uh, and, and she said, she was just, she— (Sniffs) so she went with Billy. It was six— This was six years ago, and she went with Billy—
Voices interrupt.
Bill: Wait, let me, me ask one, let me ask one question we can understand something, Bruce. ‘Cause like— (fades out)— This is exactly the same second I said— ah, I said, we was warring at a party, and what happened was uh— (Pause) Wh— What happened was I went out to party, and I walked down the stairs to the house, right? So then I saw— turned around and saw Bruce walkin’ with her. So I said, well, I want to see how my brother is, right, so I went— I went in the door, as they walked up the stairs, I came back out to the stairs and I went upstairs, and that’s when I saw ‘em. This is the exact same second, you know, and I— I felt that was kinda f— shitty, even though it was six years ago, but it still carries (unintelligible word), I still lost a lot of respect for you for that. And you know, right at the same second, I— I— you—
Voices compete.
Woman: Did you quit him— quit her?
Bill: Oh, the— at the— at the party, that second, yes.
Woman: You quit her at the party and then he fucked her right after that.
Bill: The minute. The min— yes. This is— this is— this is at— this is at the party.
Male: You talkin’ about after the fact? Did— did you— did you quit her after the fact, after you found them doing it, you know?
Bruce: No. No. ‘S before. It was— it was— it was before. Before.
Bill: You see, well, you see, here’s, here’s the whole thing, though, and this is—
Tape cuts to minimal tones for several moments. Voices hard to understand.
Woman: (tape cuts in) We was breaking up, and I mean it was your thing?
Male voice too soft in reply.
Woman: Oh, shit. Fuck it.
Male: — unclear here to me. Uh, I don’t— I don’t excuse Bruce’s— I don’t excuse Bruce’s ah, action here. But uh, didn’t you know Bruce was with her? Well, don’t you owe some allegiance to your sister?
Jones: That’s one allegiance that never has been, been with sisters. They don’t, uh— they’re not emancipated enough to uh, see that uh, without uh, solidarity— this is same problem we have with we who are black and Indian. There’s no solidarity. Your very best friend will do it and undercut, and until people realize the necessity of that kind of solidarity, we will never overcome. That’s why women are shit on to this day. And you shit on each other. (Pause) Well, that’s— your marital situation is between you and he to decide. I would not base your marital separation on an, a, a sexual embarrassment. If you are finished with his relationship based on something else, fine. But uh, this is the— this is the way the game goes. This is standard. This is standard practice. (Pause) It’s going to— It’s going to have to stop, or everyone give the same license, and there oughtn’t to be this be this juvenile browbeating of her. If she’d had an affair, she had every right to an affair, because you ding-dong her— so I understand, not by public testimony, but what she told me privately, that you ding-donged her every damn day about Tim. How was it, ‘n what was it, ‘n what was it like? This kind of shit.
Bruce: No, Dad, no. No, I didn’t, how it wasn’t, and— no, I did not do that. That—
Jones: Well, this is certainly a lot of preoccupation with Tim here, son. Gotta get on this radio right now, wanted to go to— he, he— I’m sure you didn’t just develop that preoccupation overnight.
Male voice too soft.
Jones: This is in your own handwriting.
Male: You see, that the idea— the idea for you to go through this kind of stuff, when we’re in the— when we’re in the middle of a White Night. We’re trying to get some things straight, and you gonna put all this kind of— you know, that you gotta— you got to do this—
Jones: And they’re trying to kidnap you in the town. And I needed you, or I needed your function. But I woulda brought you back anyway, under the circumstances. I’da brought you back. Can’t be dependable, you say, I’ve got to— I’ve got to talk to you. This letter doesn’t sound like you’re any— preoccupied with anything but your relationship. (Pause) And a— and a very possessive way of, of talking about it. (Pause) It’s bullshit for a person who been in socialism as long as (Pause) you. And I want to clear the air of a lot of things. Is it true that when your parents off— offered you both a car, that you took the car and Billy would not take the car—
Bruce: No, Dad.
Jones: —and then took the money, uh, told him he need— wanted the money to go to the cause, and they wouldn’t give it, and you still took the car from them?
Bruce: Dad, I bought that car with my own money.
Man: (unintelligible) what you told me—
Bruce: I lied— I bought the car with my own money. I lied about it, but I bought the car with my own money.
Bill: (Sniffs) Uh, uh, my— what you told me is what, you, you told me, don’t say nothing, that um, Mom and Grandmother, so you don’t tell nothing, and you got— and you bought the car. And that’s— and that’s— and that’s been the case all through the years, that you bou— buying suits, and I tell you, I saw one and I said— (stumbles over words) that’s been the case all through the years. And you told me that Grand— that Grandma and Mom got together, and said don’t tell me nothing about it, and bought you the car. And just before we left, (unintelligible phrase) you was gonna get another Firebird.
Bruce: Dad? Uh, it, it has been true that— it has been true that all our life that, that Billy, Billy has been way more principled than me, that, he would— he would— he would never accept money from— he would al— every— every money you gave him, he would turn in to the cause. Every— every— every time you offered to buy him stuff, he would say, no, that he wanted to go, and he had to go to church, and he had to go on security, he would never ever accept nothing from her. It would always be me that would— when they offered it, I would take it, but he— every— almost every dime he got, he turned in to the church, Dad, and— you know—
Voice in crowd too soft.
Bruce: It was— (unintelligible, tape break-up), but he— he had— he had— he had the way— way of more principle—
Jones: (Parental) Yes, and he’s more mature and not filled with fear, uh, because he— he had the cou— he had the uh, confidence to date a practicing— and become engaged to a practicing lesbian without being threatened. Here you had nothing to concern yourself until you created the very situation— you set it up— you— out of your own paranoia, you created your own downfall. And here’s a young man who, not protected, not sheltered, did the principled thing, who has matured far far beyond you. You should have broken away from that sick thing that your mother did with you, and— enough to see her hatred. ‘Cause now they’re involved in sending mercenaries to get you, and you saw them approach you in the building. You know what the, uh, the paper says, that the mercenaries are to come to get you, (deliberate) dead or alive, to take you by force. Well, you know— know— you know it now. Um— and they’re involved in that, ah, [Tim] Stoen’s involved in that, Ponts is, ah, Lois’ whatever he— what the name of the man, I don’t want to keep calling him Ponts, what’s the—
Voice in crowd too soft.
Jones: (Unintelligible word) Ponts is his name?
Voice in crowd too soft.
Jones: Don. Okay, Don. Okay, Don. (Pause) These are wicked people. And— I did put my life on my line for you, and I didn’t appreciate this— you got to get on the radio, and you did come that radio— requiring our— right in the middle of our crisis, to talk. And we weren’t— we were hardly able to have radio contact. We were barely able to get out the minimal communications necessary for our survival. And this letter is demanding that you— she talk to you on the radio. And you did come to the radio, son, and took up— tried to take up precious time, till they just wouldn’t uh, they wouldn’t agree to it. Is that correct?
Bruce: Dad, when I came to the radio, it was—
Voices.
Bruce: They— they— Debbie [Blakey, also known as Debbie Layton], who was doing the radio, called people down at the times that she thought people can talk. I— I— I— I— I never demanded—
Male voice in crowd: (Unintelligible) If you had got on there, you woulda— you woulda (unintelligible), what a— what a bunch of bullshit about Shanda— (voice overcome by Jones)
Jones: It says so here.
Woman: That’s not true.
Jones: It says so.
Bruce: What I wanted to ask—
Jones: What’s that?
Woman: That’s not true, because we had been cut off from radio for— (Interrupted) What? Oh, I’m sorry. (Softer voice) We had been cut off from radio, and you came down, and you wanted to say hello. We hadn’t even been able to communicate one day, and you came down.
Bruce: I— I asked— I asked—
Woman: I know, but you didn’t even think about the fact that we hadn’t even had any communication, you wanted to talk to Shanda.
Man in crowd: You just lied.
Marceline: I can understand that you might be a little afraid that uh, she might find out what you’ve been doing. You know, you were left there in Georgetown—
Jones and Marceline speak over each other.
Jones: — His letter’s not even humble about it, what he was doing. He was wanting to find out, right now, what she and Tim was doing, as if it were fact, law and gospel, and have me chasing all around here—
Male in crowd: (fades in) respect for her. Shows her deep respect and care for (unintelligible)
Jones: It isn’t, if— if it were true. (Deliberate) It is written as if it is fact.
Voice in crowd too soft.
Male voice cuts in: — because he cares about each and every one of us, cares about you, Shanda and the whole thing, we’ll get to the bottom of it. And so, in the middle of all this stuff, he’ll put down— he’ll put down stuff that, that he shouldn’t be concerned about— (Pause) He— He’ll put down stuff that he shouldn’t be concerned about, he’ll deal with, deal with stuff that’s personal (voice fades out)—
Bruce: Right.
Man: I’m— I’m talking about the letter now, (unintelligible) find out, find out, find out what you’re doing, all this based on what you had (tape break-up). That was a bunch of bullshit.
Bruce: That’s true.
Jones: (Reads) Please make sure Jimmy talks to his dad about me coming back to practice for the show. He’ll know what I’m talking about. And I asked Jim, and he said there was no such arrangement.
Voice in crowd too soft.
Bruce: I— I told you, I— I—
Jones: Shh. Shh. I’m just trying to get— I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to— shh. This thing doesn’t act like it’s worth anything at this moment, is it?
Voice in crowd too soft.
Jones: Okay, fine. That’s good. He’ll know what I’m talking about. (Pause) You see, I— I am forced by your hand. When I needed someone to relieve— How long is uh, um, yeah, Ricky? Yeah, they’ve been in there, but I was thinking, probably [Robert] Stroud, how long— how long? Three months? Four months? Five months? And you can’t be there a few days, and you’re trying to arrange to get your ass out of there, when you coulda been, with your mind on— on helping, so that my procurement could have gone on. This letter’s very demanding, to get back here, right?
Bruce: Yes, Dad.
Jones: This is your writing.
Bruce: Yes, Dad. (Sniffs)
Jones: (Pause) I would think that you would have uh, felt every urgency— Because I put my life square-ass on the line for you. Square-ass on the line. That I can well remember. And I said, they couldn’t have you, and by God, there was a court order to say otherwise. (Pause) And if they invoked the court order, I’da died out here. And you’re caught up in this kind of bullshit. And every time you try to possess someone, son, you lose them. Can’t do it. (Pause) Sooner or later, it happens.
Male in crowd: What do you got to say, Bruce?
Bruce: Dad, uh— (sniffs) I am— I am— (weepy voice) I am sorry for taking up your time, Dad, and the letter was, was very possessive in that I was trying to cover my ass of things that I had been doing, and, you know, and I deserve whatev— whatever discipline, Learning Crew, whatever. (Sniff) And— and—
(tape break-up for 30 seconds)
Bruce: Yes, Dad.
Jones: You believe that? Do you believe she’s saying that— what she means?
Bruce: Yes, Dad.
Shanda: I hope so, Bruce.
Bruce: I do.
Shanda: (Saddened) I mean— and it’s not over no sexual thing about you, just— I’m just tired of your bullshit all along. You lie so good. And you— I mean, I’m just tired of being questioned about Tim, you not trusting me, the whole stuff. So it’s— that’s it.
Bruce: I know. I know.
Jones: Go ahead.
Bruce: I— I know— I know— I know I know I know I had been really possessive, and I know— I know after— I know after that um, I deserve it, ‘cause you know, after, after my mom did this, after my mom did this shit, I just became really— you know, I just— I just clung on to Shanda and I just became really possessive with her, co— so it’s like I said, I’m trying to—
Jones: You transferred from a manipulative woman, and tried to make one out of a, a socialist woman? You had a s— manipulative mother, who spoiled you, retarded you, held you back. And no, you couldn’t possibly expect Shanda to develop that kind of character, because she was a (unintelligible word) type. Anybody that tries to get you killed, don’t give a shit about you. You got a few dollars out of her, and you feel guilt about that. Your brother did the right thing. He grows to such confidence that I’m sure he would not be disturbed who he saw talking with Cynthia. Any young man that can have that kind of integrity cannot be disturbed, because so many men are bothered, although all women appreciate other women, all women admire other women— (tape break-up)
Crowd: Right.
Jones: And so, he feels ah, confident that he can have a relationship with (tape break-up) —functional ree-tard, because you have stated you were fixated on that woman that was trying to destroy you. She wasn’t emancipating you. She wanted a little boy. And that’s what she got. And then you try to transfer that to a young woman? A socialist, mature woman who has been one of our best young black leaders? You ought to know that shit wouldn’t go, and it’s so hypocritical. If you were so insecure with her, why did you — the moment she got gone — want to take on with this, this woman?
Marceline: (fades in) —you answer Dad, but I also want to say, you owe something to her.
Bruce: (Stutters) (Sniffs) It was just the same insecurity, I— you know — (Pause) I—
Jones: (Critical) It’s strange, though, it’s a stupid way to get secure. How do you think you’re going to get secure with her by going to bed with her, and— and you must had a— I— I— you must had a re— high degree of narcissism and arrogance that you didn’t think that shit wouldn’t get out on you. (Pause) It always gets out. But you were pretty sure. This letter doesn’t show me— you weren’t worried about this hitting the fan. All you were worried about, that she and Tim might be doing something. But you weren’t worried. You were confident you had this woman in your control.
Male in crowd: Right?
Bruce: Yes, Dad.
Male: Why? (Pause)
Bruce: I just— I just didn’t think it would get out.
Jones: It’s a high degree of narcissism.
Several voices in crowd.
Man: It’s a (unintelligible word)— it’s a (same word) mentality. You— you can use both of these women at the same time, and still move— move on to something else if you wanted to. You thought.
Voices too soft.
Jones: Well, now your life has started, son. You’ve lost a, a good woman. Now what— uh, what’s— now, where are you? Where are you? What you going to do?
Bruce: Just— just start— just (sighs) (Pause) Yeah.
Jones: Are you sure you’re facing this?
Bruce: Yes, Dad.
Voice too soft.
Bruce: Just— I— I owe you— I owe you a lot, Dad, so, so just— be on my own, just, just start working.
Male voice too soft.
Jones: Knowing—
Male: You know, there’re a lot of people that charge bills on credit, not even pain will pay.
Woman: Right.
Jones: Well put.
Voices too soft.
Jones: Don’t make announcements on that P.A. system. Oh, God, let’s do not do that. (Pause) Are you sure you don’t think like you— maybe you’ll be able to manipulate, to get back?
Bruce: I don’t. I don’t. I don’t. (Sniffs)
Jones: I would say it’s pretty decisive, the counsel I’ve had, which has been considerable. It’s pretty decisive, so you’re gonna have to pick up the pieces. (Pause) Where do you want to start?
Bruce: (Pause) By— (Pause) I—
(Tape cuts off)
(End of side 1)
(Side 2)
Jones: (Tape cuts in) —for your plaything? I don’t know— I don’t know what particular— or did you substitute her as a mother too? What— what were you doing? Mum— Let one get away, and you t— take up with another. What— what— what is the— what was the— (More deliberate) What did this woman mean to you, and what did she mean to you?
Bruce: Uh, it— it was that— it was that exact same thing. When Shanda was gone, I didn’t think— I thought she was going to be in Georgetown. I— I really didn’t think she would— I really didn’t think she wanted to come back. I really thought that she wanted to stay there, ‘cause— ‘cause she was working hard for the church. So then that’s when— that’s when I started messing around with Karen, and uh—
Jones: Messing around with Karen? She says it’s been going on for— for years.
Marceline: Are you saying—
Woman (Karen?): Yeah.
Marceline: Are you saying that because Shanda was devoted to the cause and wanted to work for the church, that you were going to turn to another woman? Is that what you’re telling us?
Lee Ingram: —make Shanda suffer for that.
Bruce: Ye— ye— yes, ‘cause I— I didn’t— I just— I didn’t think— I didn’t think that she— that she— I— I—
Voices too soft.
Male in crowd: —coming out now, what’s coming out now is that you and Karen have had a long— long thing— (JJ speaks over him)
Jones: Have you, or have you not? It’s what was told me.
Bruce: Ye— ye— it’s been— it was on, then it was off, then it was— then it was on, then it was off.
Jones: ‘Cause you do story now, I find then.
Male: Is that right?
Jones: Mother’s story against you perhaps, but you do— do story. You look in your face like you didn’t recognize us at all.
Voices too soft.
Jones: He does what?
Marceline: I don’t like—
Male: He does story, I think— he does story from time that’s critical of security.
Jones: What was that?
Male: Like, like the time when you was with security down at the house and the times you— you’ve been asleep and you always put it off on your other partner, like— well, lis— let me talk, Bruce, let me talk. While you say, well, you know, we— like, we know something you did, ‘cause we come down there, we always check security out, and we see what you be doing, but we— (tape break-up) and you’re always put off, like, you know, we (tape break up) and I see him doing this, and, he does this, (tape breakup) maybe, you know, I don’t know nothing about it (tape break-up)
Jones: —take a gun with him?
Male: Yeah. He fell asleep with his gun in holster, and they took the gun away from him.
Voices too soft.
New male: All right, the thing about that was, (struggles for words) it was me and Tim, me and Tim was roving that night, and we went down to the house, and we first (tape break-up) first we say who was on duty, so we call. (tape break-up) (voice has weird pick-up) —security. Therefore we saw the gun. It was the first thing we s— saw was the— first thing we saw was two shotguns laying down. So then— So me and Tim, we split it up, we went around (unintelligible) look for a person, but we couldn’t find them, so— so we just step aside.
Male: And also, too—
Marceline: —you don’t know a thing about this.
Bruce: I’m sorry, not— I was sit— It— it— it was my fault, I was sitting right there, wi— wi— with gun (unintelligible word) I was asleep, and that’s— that’s when they— that’s when they— at that time I knew I really— I was really really really paranoid, ‘cause I— I— I was wondering how come— how could that happen? It made me feel really— you know, I thought— I was— I was (unintelligible)
Marceline: You were asleep?
Voices distorted.
Bruce: I got— I got paranoid when that happened. (tape breakup) You know, I— I got really paranoid, you know, wonder why I didn’t get into worse trouble (tape breakup).
Difficulties with recording system lasting for several minutes.
Male: —and then, as an— as an addition to that, it’s like, it’s like putting down another sister right here who you, who you said doesn’t have, uh, a commitment, you know, (unintelligible phrase), you know, like— like uh, you know, you gonna put, you gonna put Shanda down, and then, you know, because she’s in Jonestown— or in Georgetown, working all hard and everything, so you’re going to go up to someone else, which seems like, you know, hey, they’re— (tape cuts out for several seconds), but Bruce, you— you come off, you know, every time I’ve been talking, when I’m talking to you, you come off like, like (tape cuts out for several moments).
Another male: —that okay, people be running around here, so I’m mixed up (unintelligible).
Marceline: (Slow and steady) The idea that a good relationship is built on always having pleasant times together is wrong. You can’t really— unless you share the unpleasant, as well as the pleasant, and get to know each other, you’re not going to have anything that’s lasting. And while I’m— this is another subject, but I want to know, why is it that I’ve seen this happen more than once, and I don’t know whether this is true or not with you, Bobbie, that when a relationship goes along until the woman gets pregnant, and then all of a sudden, the man’s not interested anymore. This bothers me.
Jones: That’s frequently frequently frequently true around here. Frequently true with um, human equation. Now my opinion, basic opinion (pause) is that I fail to see how you’re going to avoid a euphoria, a state of unreality, and I’d like to hear you, you that have dissented here, to g— show me how you’re going to avoid that. You’re going to develop— I made you very cynically aware of life, if you’ve listened, and those that are listening are ready for anything and are alert for everything, I guess there can come a point of cynicism which you don’t cover your ass, but I’ve never been that way. I don’t mean cover your ass in a sense of uh— me, personally, covering the whole movement’s ass. I still work just as hard — I believe that’s analytical — and listen to all the goddamn communiqués that come in here and still try to resolve all the problems, just as intensely, with a high degree of cynicism. All the assurances (struggles for words) that come through, all the beautiful promises of the government, calling on us now to be in the election, and (Pause) things working out for us pretty cool. I still operate from a high degree of cynicism. Now (Pause) how are you going to be able to uh, avoid developing uh, a euphoria, and how are you going to be— be able to build any kind of relationship between people? Where’s the form going to take place to build relationships? ‘Cause all it’s gonna be is sex. (Pause) Practical— (Marceline speaks over him)
Marceline: None of us know anything about loving, but the beginning of loving — as I’ve said hundreds of times — is sharing what you are, the negative and the positive, with another individual. And if all you want is to get together when you feel like you’re gonna have fun together, that’s no relationship. (Pause)
Jones: I’m going to have to pee. (Pause)
Voices in crowd too soft.
Young white woman: Okay, my reason for voting for it is that, is that um, I found, when I was in a relationship, that being in the relationship, being in an— an intense uh, being around a person all the time, made me an unfunctional human being, and um, I feel that, that as long as we’re um, tolerating relationships, that we would have more functional people if um, they didn’t have to have this constant relating. I— I feel that the constant relating is a sickness. I— I— I really feel that, since I’ve um, been out of the um, this intense one-to-one relationship since I’ve been in here, you know, I— I feel that I’ve become a much more healthy human being, and um, you know, I just feel it’s a—
Jones: That sounds reasonable. That sounds reasonable. Now let’s hear another.
Male: Uh, the reason I voted ‘cause I feel— I feel the same way that uh, Taylor felt, ‘cause I—
Jones: I don’t want to hear— I don’t want to hear any of that. I don’t want to hear anybody saying what someone else felt. I want to hear what you have to say.
Male: Right. O— Okay. What I feel is that if— if you was uh— okay like, living (unintelligible word)— living together, you know, you cons— you constantly, you know, know what I’m saying, (struggles for words) you know, places, you know, inside, you know, with, with that person, you know, you just steady, you know, going and going over with this fir— you know, the same person, and so I feel you know like, she— like, she— if she lived in another (stumbles for words) cottage, and I live someplace else, and then you know, off and— like we see each other off and on, I feel that way, you know, you—
Jones: You see anybody else— have you ever seen anybody else since you been in your relationship?
Male: I’m not in a relationship.
Jones: Mmm?
Male: I’m not in a relationship.
Jones: Okay, okay. I understand. I’m just asking. (Pause) Go ahead.
Male: And so uh, (stumbles over words) like uh, Billy right? ‘Cause his relationship, his relationship going on, going on real good, right?
Jones: Mm-hmm.
Male: And so I— and so I feel two people, you know, living together—
Jones: He— They don’t live together?
Male: Not that I know of.
Jones: How many— how many— how many— Huh? (Slips over words) Of course not.
Male: And like— and— and then they’s going along good, you know, and so I feel— when two people, you know, like, two couples that live together, you know like, they’re always arguing, you know, they’re always getting into a fight or something—
Jones: Well, that’s— that’s the unreality.
Male: But—
Jones: That’s the unreality of relationships. That’s life. Now what’s going to happen if we don’t face that, and see the need to communicate more? ‘Cause something’s wrong. Something basically wrong. We’re not communicating. We don’t like each other. We fighting that much. Are we going to be able to avoid that by uh, changing the style? What substitution are we going to have for it? I want some substitution. If you go for it, I want some requirement that every person must take time with a child. (Pause) Uh, there got to be— I think this is a very dangerous situation otherwise. (Pause) There gonna be just sexual sharing here, and nothing else, uh, very, very bad situation. Nobody’s ever going to know each other, they’re not going to be able to communicate, not going to bear other people’s problems (Pause). I know that some of us have not operated that way. We uh, we— if we were caught in situations that were— for socialistic reasons, even, we have maintained them. (Pause) And we didn’t jump out of them. (Pause) And if I had uh, jumped out of relations — Jesus Christ — and didn’t want to communicate, there’d be a thousand people here that would have some misfortunes. Some of you don’t know it, but uh, you would have. (Pause) Somebody had to be willing to give and listen, and I have come to that point in time when I can’t take as much of that in pressure, but I’m very, very concerned that people will use this as an out for ever giving of themselves. That’s what I see as a danger. Then there are people like this who honestly, as she said, can’t take an intense relationship. (Pause) But I don’t know how you make in a commune, different kinds of rules uh, for different people. Maybe it’s possible. ‘Cause there’ll always be somebody envying the other role, and we’ll have a constant shifting of policies every day. Yes, uh, Lisa, what were you going to say about it?
Lisa: (Caribbean accent) It seems that a lot of people who are h— are having relationships and live together, seem to go apart awfully quickly, and I was just thinking that possibly if they started out to have a relationship where they’re not forced to live together, they might mature enough to eventually make it a la— more lasting relationship. I was thinking particular of, uh, Bobby—
Jones: Okay, how— how we gonna control this birth control thing? What I want to find is uh, the first thing, gonna have two people pregnant, that don’t even know each other. That’s what— and then, then how in the hell you gonna rear a child, uh— you gonna have to hear from— I want to hear from birth control people strict ways for the enforcement of this. Um— (Pause) And people are free in their time— that means you have free time. That means that I see it, I see it as plain as the nose of my face, there gonna be s— gonna be playing.
Male voice too far from mike.
Jones: Why can’t somebody talk about birth control besides— is there anybody else?
Male voice too soft.
Jones: Yes, Lisa, go ahead.
Lisa: I was thinking, when you asked that question, I was thinking in terms of uh, Bob and Daisy [Lee]. Now eh, Bob— they don’t seem to be mature enough to carry on a re— a lasting relationship, but they are not ready to, to give it up. And I thought if they were given the chance to live apart and continue it, they might mature enough to make up their own minds. I— I— I hate to see them being forced to make up their mi— up their minds on the spot, whether they want to continue or quit—
Jones: Well, I’ll tell you one thing. You’re talking liberalism as opposed to communism. And liberalism, I think, can come at a place in communism. But right now we’re a communist movement in a — in a war zone. Terrifying war zone. And I think that there— they not only got to develop this kind of latitude as time goes on, if this is the peace, if this is indeed the wind of peace that’s coming in, then we can develop that facility to cope with each person’s individual problem. Right now, we have to make a lot of rules and abide by them, because it’s a survival situation. (Struggles for words) Maybe later we’ll be able to have variations on the menu. But now, we’d go— we’d go broke in one month, if we had much— very much variation. We do have variation for people’s health, and that’s more than we really can afford. But um— if I make myself clear, I— I— I— I sympathize fully with their situation, and the need— you— you can’t put everybody in the same hue. And it’s very, very true. But then you have to look at the totality. What achieves the greatest success for people, the greatest good for the greatest number of humanity is communism, obviously. Be willing— encroach a little bit on some people’s individualism. Generally it increases individualism. It strengthens the individual. Gives them more security, and out of that security comes a stronger person, if they appreciate what communism’s about.
Voice too soft.
Jones: Daisy and Bobby been apart, she said. They have been in Georgetown. Okay, uh, yes, uh, Lois.
Lois: I’m thinking that uh, uh, our people, our young people are not really um, become too responsible in a lot of ways uh, our young men— I see a lot of chauvinism in our young men. I think uh, we need classes or something, where they come out of— now we have a young uh, women’s group now, where they’re learning to be more emancipated, but I think the men cling to their chauvinism. What I— What I— I’ve seen uh, dealing with our babies uh, and uh, every one of the men that I’ve seen are uh, chauvinistic, and uh, and they, they are continuing on with their roles um, of letting uh, of just doing what they can do around the woman, and she’s uh, having to tell him every little move to make, and um— I don’t know, that’s the reason, I— I’d, uh— (Pause) Whether it’s familiarity breeds contempt, I don’t know what it is, uh, when people live together, uh, I’ve read of uh, uh, different uh, peoples that, that the women live together and the babies, and the men live in another little place (Short laugh) and they get together on their sex, and they seem to, to make it out all right. I don’t know, uh, when you’re talking about revolution and um, and you’re— and uh, how anybody can anyway have much sex going on, um— but anyway, I— I—
Jones: Pretty hard, if we realize how dangerous the conditions are at this particular point, where you don’t know whether mercenaries are landed, where are they, are they here, or are they coming? And I’m so (stumbles over words) at uh, some puzzlement as to where one went, that we saw a manifestation only one time. (Pause) And the— we have never seen him return. But— These people are serious, these people are serious. They have hired mercenaries, George Hunter said. They have hired them. Didn’t say they would, he said they have. (Pause) Yes, son.
Son: I’d just like to say, I was voting my own mind, and uh, I spoke my mind, I spoke what I thought, and I— I— I do think though that, um, it’s too late in the night, number one, we have a lot of stuff to do. I think uh, Lee [Ingram] made a suggestion, we ought to reconsider it. I think things change, and I don’t think— I don’t think— if we believe that everything is going to h— have to remain the way we started out with, when we— when we made a vote six months ago, I don’t think— I don’t think we’re being very realistic with ourselves. And people change and time changes, and I think that we oughta— we oughta— um, ‘cause we— we lost a vote, those of us that voted one way, we lost a vote, and I think that we, uh— those of us that lost the vote, we have to a— abide by, by the majority, and I think that’s—
Jones: If you’ve got— If you’ve got indeed an honest vote. Let’s take the vote once more. ‘Cause this vote’s a very, very serious vote. (Pause) Now, how many— ‘cause I saw you pick up three times in the vote the last time. (Pause) Now you’ll lose the vote if you don’t vote. I mean, that’s what he said. Then the situation will remain just as it is, until we can have the calm and peace we need to discuss it again. And anybody that violates that rule will be guilty of all the breaches of discipline that have brought in the past. Learning Crew, personified, in most people’s mind, by Penny [Kerns, also known as Ellen Louise Dupont]. Okay. Again, now— How are you going to vote, some of you people. Will you wake ‘em up? (Pause) Some of you people don’t know shit from apple butter. (Pause) And those who are not interested in relationships a tall, at all, should not vote. (Pause) You have no way of possibly identifying (Pause) the problem. If you’re 85 years of age and not interested in a relationship, you ought to not vote. That’s my opinion. Quit trying to relate to something that you are out of— out of commission to do, or you want to destroy in somebody else, an opportunity for something, because you are over the hill. (Pause) Hmm? (Pause) Peace.
Voice too soft.
Jones: So now, how many want to maintain the existing structure, three month trial, six months— (Pause) When— when you finish three month, you go into six months, and you live together during this period. (Pause) And how many are opposed? (Pause)
Male: You know, I— Dad, may I say something?
Jones: Every time, I see more votes, honest to God. I wish you people would vote your p— piece on the matter, because we’ll never ki— find truth of where we are, until you speak where you are.
Male: Da— Dad, I— I don’t think people should just be allowed to start fucking. I think they still should have the three months, and then the six months, and I think it should be up to them, then— and that’s— and that’s how I’m—I’m envisioning my vote. I think it should be up to them, if they want to live together, if they want to live separate, but I don’t think folks just ought to be allowed— if that’s what I’m voting for, then I rescind my vote. I don’t think that’s— that that’s the—
Male in crowd: (interrupt, voice fades in) —one to one on the other one, you know, it’s not fair, you know, to separate. There ought to be equal agreement on each other.
First male: Right. I— I think it’s—
Jones: I didn’t know what I’m voting on, really. I’m voting, I think, for the continuation of six— three months, six months, (stumbles over words)— it’s just as opposed to one, people uh, living together, the, the same situation, the same regulation, three months, six months, same bond, if you get pregnant, although the birth control aspects give me some real worry, and I know a lot of folk are going to enter into a superficial thing, and they’re going to be four or five things going for them, until you men— and there’s some chance we may take in some Chileans or others of that sort, if things go on, which will balance out this population, and you women are going to have to get some goddamn emancipation about you, because you’re the one to control it— You can have a male class, as long as the ratio is more male than female, and women are not emancipated, we’re going to have this shit right along. And you’re going to make your men into ah, apparitions and images that aren’t worth shit, by undue worship. (Pause) If you— if you— if you can’t control your panty, then there’s no use for you to vote. If that’s where your image of yourself is going to be, is through your vagina, uh, we’re doomed to failure, until we get a balance of population. And I’ll be tempted, very strongly, to find that balance of population as quickly as I can, to stop this arrogant bullshit of chauvinism around babies— it still goes on with baby boy, preferential treatment— and a lot of crap that I’d like to see eliminated. And that doesn’t necessarily, by any means say that those who voted for this new arrangement are guilty of that. I’ve seen that amongst some of— many that are wanting to maintain the present structure. So now the vote is again, again. There’s no difference a tall in the relationships. You have to go three months— Then, unless you come to us, if you’ve got a special, burning problem, you come to us and then we can talk it over— maybe there’ll be bending, if you’ve done very well, earlier than three months. Si— based on work production, where you— based on your uh, ability to relate to the total family need. (Pause) Uh, three months, and six months, is the same. Unless you’re pregnant, of course, it’s automatic that you’re married. It’s the end of six months, you can’t break a relationship, if you have not taken the care to keep from getting pregnant. And that puts the burden on both the male and the female. And if the male doesn’t feel the female’s doing the job, you better do yours. (Pause) ‘Cause there’re rubbers. Or there’re vasectomies. If you don’t want the responsibility of married, you arrange for a vasectomy. (Pause) Now again, how many want uh, to be able to maintain the same kind of relationship structure, but they would like the freedom of deciding individually whether they live in the same quarters all the time or not? (Pause) I’m going to have to get down to counting now. (Long pause) Now who’s the one over there— somebody, hand over there? Two forty-two, 43, 44, 45, 46? I got you. Okay, now how many are opposed? (Pause) Now I don’t— I don’t like some of these votes, you’re afraid— I see a jealous old bastard’s voting.
Ripple of laughter. Voice too soft.
Jones: Jealous old bastards. Yeah. I— I do. Afraid to leave your companion alone for a little bit. So I don’t see maturity necessarily on the side of one or the other. So I’ll take the vote again, and we’ll see again. Now, it’s so damn close. What are the— the people who wants relationships to be firm, but they want the privilege, if both parties decide to live apart, that they can maintain the sexual relationship— Up to what? Even the point beyond which we have babies? How do you— We’re going to have to define then some clooose responsibilities—
Male voice: (fades in) —Could I add something about birth control? I don’t know— Ava says that there’s only 20 women who are taking birth control pills, and I think we ought to really study the situation to find out if we’re getting into pregnancies or not. I don’t know what’s happening with the birth control, and I think we really ought to find out. (Pause) That’s right, but uh—
Woman voice too soft.
Jones: Well, you (unintelligible word) ready to study it. We, we uh, we don’t need about 800 babies.
Woman: Uh— my opinion of this is, that Liz [Ruggerio] every day has to call out people or send for people to get their birth control pills, and I think at this point that we cannot leave their birth control in their hands. It’s our duty, you know, or we’re going to have pregnancies.
Jones: It’s demand— I demand it. It’s not your duty, it’s your— I demand it. That they must be given those birth control— and if they continue to defy law, I think they should go in and be operated.
Crowd: Right.
Jones: Now he can operate them here, as far as that goes.
Woman: But as far as I’m concerned—
Jones: I think— I mean this— I mean this seriously. If you do not comply with this regulation, we will see that you— something firm, measures taken.
Woman: Ah, because ah, unless there is a real reason, you know, a real sickness that they cannot take a pill, I don’t think we can depend on them to use rubbers or foam or whatever, because, you know, people are finding things, they’re bringing back stuff that they didn’t know how to use, or one thing— I mean, there’s a lot of, you know, things cropping up, and then, you know, if something comes up, then it’s all of our responsibilities to take care of that child, and so I think it should be demanded, like you say.
(End of tape)